Interview With Stephen Paul, Author of “Hollow Bones”
Stephen Paul has a Ph.D. in clinical psychology from the University of Missouri and has taught, researched, counseled, and consulted at the University of Utah. Until five years ago, Stephen maintained a private practice while he and his wife, Jackie, owned and operated a metaphysical bookstore and a vegetarian restaurant, providing an oasis for the Salt Lake community. He currently writes and speaks about how to ride the inevitable waves of change by living more simply, harmoniously, and respectfully–more in line with Spirit.
Stephen collaborated with artist Gary Collins to publish “”Illuminations: Visions for Change, Growth, and Self-Acceptance,”” “”Inneractions: Visions to Bring Your Inner and Outer Worlds into Harmony,”” and “”In Love: Visions for Growth and Harmony in Relationships.””
Tyler: Welcome, Stephen. “”Hollow Bones”” is a very intriguing book. I’m afraid if I try to describe it, I won’t be able to do it justice. Would you please summarize for us what kind of book it is and what it’s about?
Stephen: Let me start by putting “”Hollow Bones”” in its historical context. In 1993, Native American prophecy was fulfilled when a delegation representing the North American indigenous peoples addressed the Cry of the Earth conference at the United Nations. Hopi spiritual leaders had instructed messengers to knock four times at the doors of the UN in an attempt to deliver their message to the people of the world. It took forty-five years, but on the fourth–and last–attempt they finally gained access. The elders took that opportunity to deliver the prophecies of their spiritual leaders to the world.
The elders warned that a long-predicted time of purification was already under way. They urged that we heed the Creator’s original instructions to the indigenous peoples, and voluntarily return to living in simpler, more respectful, and more harmonious ways. The elders warned that should we choose to ignore this message, erratic weather patterns, earth movements, starvation, violence, and war would occur with ever increasing frequency and intensity.
“”Hollow Bones”” takes place in the not-too-distant future, at a time when those predicted changes and disruptions are well under way. Matthew’s life has unraveled since the death of his wife. Now, with his friend, Hope, and her young daughter, Lily, he commences a journey in search of a new beginning.
Along the road, the three travelers face the harsh realities of a failing culture, the sheltering kindness of strangers…and a string of startling revelations. Vivid dreams trigger memories of a shared lifetime with Chief Joseph, long-forgotten Spirit ways, and a two hundred-year-old oath they had made to return. The dreams mark the beginning of a startling series of encounters and events, leading to the long-awaited fulfillment of ancient Native prophecies.
Tyler: Stephen, “”Hollow Bones”” focuses on spirituality, and many of the ideas will probably already be familiar to people interested in spirituality. But what made you decide to write a novel to express these ideas?
Stephen: In retrospect, I’d say there were two main reasons why I chose to write “”Hollow Bones”” in novel form. First, I’ve always personally enjoyed reading spiritual fiction. In books such as “”The Alchemist”” by Paulo Coelho or Dan Millman’s “”The Way of the Peaceful Warrior”” an unfolding story transports the characters–and the reader–through a series of intriguing adventures that result in important personal realizations. As a reader, I can be caught up in the engaging adventures, while at the same time benefiting from the insights the characters gain along the way. A novel can bring insights to life in ways that non-fiction simply cannot.
The second reason I decided to write “”Hollow Bones”” as a novel is that the central theme of the book–the relatedness theme–first came to me as a visual image: I saw and experienced the possibilities of relatedness literally playing out before my eyes. That compelling vision had a built-in narrative that could easily be expanded and elaborated into story format. This is a story that told itself.
Tyler: Stephen, do you yourself believe in the prophecies issued in 1993 as something that will come true. I ask because I’m wondering to what extent you sought to be accurate regarding those prophecies and their implications, and what if any room did you leave to fictionalize the situation? Since you set it in the future, even if a not too distant future, are we to assume it has to be fictional to some extent?
Stephen: I do believe those prophecies will come true. In fact, I believe they are already coming true. When I read the paper or watch the news, I see those prophecies unfolding. In the last week alone, 500 villagers were killed in warfare in Iraq, a level 8.0 earthquake hit Peru, China, India, North Korea, and our own Midwest experienced record-breaking and devastating flooding, hurricane Dean is sweeping a wide swath through the Caribbean, and one of the largest fires in history rages in California. Disruptive events just like those are occurring all over the world, every day.
But, you’re absolutely right, Tyler, “”Hollow Bones”” is a work of fiction. I decided not to focus on the specific events–the purifying events–that might bring about the changes depicted in the story. Because all of the problems we face (climate changes, energy, food and water shortages, wars, etc.) are interrelated, there are many possible scenarios for how the transforming events will play out.
In “”Hollow Bones”” (as I believe it is in reality) the purifying events are only the means used to bring us to our senses and lead us to realizations we must eventually all discover. They are meant to bring us back into harmony with each other and our world.
Tyler: The book also follows the mythological journey quest format. What sets “”Hollow Bones”” apart from other books that use the journey motif?
Stephen: Often in the mythical journey genre, a naïve main character is guided and transformed by a much wiser and knowing mentor, teacher, or guide. That guide typically knows exactly what’s going on, while the protagonist struggles along unaware.
In “”Hollow Bones”” none of the central characters see the big picture. There is no all-knowing figure to lead them. It’s in the convergence of the separate pieces each individual holds–their joining in community–that the whole takes form. Each person is fulfilling a part of much larger prophecy, without any awareness of the other parts being played out, or the prophecy itself.
Tyler: I understand the book is based on Native American prophecy? Would you tell us a little bit more about that background?
Stephen: I already mentioned the prophecies issued at the “”Cry of the Earth”” conference earlier in the interview. Those prophecies are important because they establish a time frame and context for the disruptive events taking place in “”Hollow Bones.”” We live at the time when the old Native American prophecies are being fulfilled.
A second set of prophecies actually inspired the storyline of “”Hollow Bones.”” Those prophecies were compiled by author Steven McFadden in his book “”The Rainbow Warrior Prophecies.”” Of those prophecies, Crazy Horse’s sweeping vision is considered to be the most important prophecy ever given to the Native American people. Concerned about the future welfare of his people as Whites began invading their lands, Crazy Horse prepared and purified himself and then withdrew to a holy mountain to pray earnestly for a guiding vision.
In the vision that came to Crazy Horse, he was shown not only the future of his own people, but the future of the world. He was grief-stricken to foresee the overwhelming defeat and subsequent subjugation, decline, and suffering of his people, which extended far into the future. Not knowing what they were, he observed metal objects (cars and planes) crisscrossing the continent. To his utter dismay, Crazy Horse was made to witness the unbelievable carnage of two world wars.
After having to endure those images of misery, pain, and war, Crazy Horse was shown a bright light that rose in the East. The light brought forth a tree of life from the blood-soaked soil of this continent. Crazy Horse watched as beings from the spirit world returned to the earth and danced together under that tree. Some of the people living on the earth (people of all races–a rainbow of colors) felt drawn to dance together with the spirit beings under the tree of life, and a new world was given birth.
We live at the time when that prophecy is about to be fulfilled. “”Hollow Bones”” offers one account of how that might transpire in the lives of people who are alive today.
Tyler: Stephen, what would you say to people who would say such prophecies are only coincidences? In what ways do you see the prophecies are being fulfilled?
Stephen: I would say that I don’t believe in coincidence. I believe we would have to be in complete denial not to recognize the relationship between our choices and actions and the turmoil and disruptions in the world. I believe those events are intensifying and increasing in frequency as a direct consequence of our not heeding the call to live more simply, harmoniously, and respectfully.
At the same time I was exploring the Native American prophecies, I was also reading scientific predictions about the future. In my reading, I came across “”Plan B 2.0″” by Lester Brown. Lester did an analysis of world resources and concluded that there were several interrelated problems (population growth, climate change, poverty, spreading water shortages, rising oil prices, and rising food prices) that all pose serious, imminent threats to the earth and mankind. He predicted that, unless we launch an immediate, fully-committed response to those problems, we will experience terrible economic, social, political, and environmental consequences.
I came away believing that we live at a time when scientific predictions and Native prophecies are converging. Both are being fulfilled.
Tyler: Stephen, as you talk about the prophecies, I am guessing readers will want to read these prophecies for themselves. Would you tell us where one can find copies of them?
Stephen: The messages and prophecies delivered by the Native tribal representatives at the 1993 “”Cry of the Earth”” conference can be found on the People’s Paths website, http://www.yvwiiusdinvnohii.net/political/cry.html. They also offer a link to a site where you can obtain a videotape of the entire conference.
I drew heavily on Steven McFadden’s compilation of historic and contemporary indigenous prophecies which can be found in his book “”Legend of the Rainbow Warriors.”” He can be contacted through his website is http://chiron-communications.com. There is also a second excellent account of Crazy Horse’s vision in Kurt Kaltreider’s book, “”American Indian Prophecies.””
Tyler: I am also curious how the prophecies you mention came to be written down. For example, I am aware that controversy has arisen around the book “”Black Elk Speaks”” because Black Elk did not actually write it, but rather the oral stories were written down by John Neihardt, a white man, who probably edited the narrative to make it more readable for a wider audience. Consequently, questions arise about the authenticity of the text and what might have been changed, especially since Black Elk’s editor was a white man. What, therefore, makes such Native American prophecies valid in your opinion?
Stephen: As I mentioned, the prophecies presented at the Cry of the Earth Conference are available as public record in tape or transcript form. The conference speakers indicated that many of the instructions and messages given to the indigenous peoples by The Creator were delivered in physical form (stones, wampum belts, etc.). Those records have been carefully guarded and preserved. Some of the prophecies were passed down orally, making them more difficult to document, but the Native Americans take their oral tradition very seriously and would argue that it is superior to many written historical records.
Many of the prophecies compiled by Steven McFadden were collected during interviews with living spiritual leaders. Steven is trained as a reporter, and I trust he did a very thorough job collecting and documenting his sources and information.
I accept the validity of the prophecies for several reasons. First, I believe that indigenous people around the world once had a very close relationship with Spirit, and that they were given instructions and caretaking responsibilities. Second, there is a great deal of consistency among the many different sources even though they live in different parts of this country and on other continents. Third, many of the events mentioned in the prophecies have already come to pass, and the prophecies have proved to be quite accurate (the arrival of the White man, cars, planes, wars). Fourth, a friend who is a Native American medicine man read “”Hollow Bones,”” and he agreed that these prophecies are being fulfilled now. Finally, I trust my own intuition, and my intuition leads me to believe in, and to honor, the essence of the message of these prophecies.
Tyler: Stephen, are you Native American yourself, or if not, how did you become interested in Native American culture and religion?
Stephen: That’s a bit tricky to answer. The short answer is, “”No, I was not born a Native American.”” I’ve always felt an affinity to the Native American people, especially Chief Joseph, but I hadn’t pursued those interests much further than to read a book or two, attend a couple of pow wows, and participate in a sweat ceremony.
My level of interest changed a few years ago when I attended a workshop in Montana and sat with Surya Ma and a small group of people in meditation. Suddenly everything shifted: I was dancing around a fire. I looked down and I was dressed in beaded buckskin and a bone breast plate, with an eagle feather dangling by my right ear. For that brief period of time, I was no longer the person I am in this lifetime, but rather a proud, fierce, and life-filled Native American warrior. I saw and felt as he saw and felt. I experienced relatedness–to my tribe, to the creatures, to the earth, to the Great Spirit, to all–through his experience.
When I returned from that experience, a rush of energy shot up my spine and spread around me in a circle of light that appeared as a headdress of feathers. At the same time, a voice in my head shouted, “”I have returned!”” Only after the meditation ended did Surya Ma explain to the group that Joseph and the Nez Perce had passed though the very land where we sat, during their flight to escape the pursuing U.S. cavalry.
What I saw through that warrior’s eyes and felt through his heart was powerful, wonderful, and far beyond my imagining. I had never experienced anything that resembled the relatedness I felt then in this lifetime. It was as if I were being shown the very essence of something we desperately need to remember now. I went away that afternoon knowing I had to write about that experience.
As you can imagine, since then I’ve become much more interested and involved with Native Americans. I’ve traveled to several different reservations, participated in pow wows and ceremonies, and rekindled a friendship with a medicine man I have known for a couple of decades. He is educating me about the Native ways.
Tyler: As I mentioned earlier, Stephen, you practiced as a psychologist for many years. How has that work influenced your writing?
Stephen: As a therapist for thirty years, I had the opportunity to know many people intimately, and to witness, time after time, the difficult process of personal transformation. For years, I had a ring-side seat at the tug of war between a person’s will to change and their strong resistance to change. During the last few years I practiced, I realized just how important it is for a person to release his or her attachments–their energetic ties to the people and things in their lives–in order really to change and live freely. Those observations and realizations found their way into the “”Hollow Bones”” storyline and into the transformations that the characters experience.
Years ago, I discovered that I did my best work as a therapist when I emptied myself and opened to inspiration during my sessions: I learned to be a “”hollow bone.”” Often I would learn things I had not known before during those sessions, right along with my clients. That was always exhilarating. I applied the very same practice to my writing, approaching each writing session as a “”hollow bone.””
Tyler: I understand that in the book, the characters have dreams which they later learn are really past-life memories. Why did you feel the need to include this idea of reincarnation into the book? What can be learned from past-life memories?
Stephen: As I mentioned before, the meditation I did with Surya Ma had quite an affect on me. During that meditation I experienced myself as a Native American warrior (I place the period as the late 1800s) and then heard myself–him?–saying, “”I have returned.”” I wasn’t observing that warrior, inferring his perspective: I was that warrior, experiencing the world as he did. I can’t say for certain, but it certainly seemed to me that I was experiencing another life I had lived.
I’ve had several other “”incidences”” in my life where I’ve experienced images seemingly tied to memories of other lifetimes (as a medicine man, as a Japanese noble, as a prophet, as a monk, as a female pianist in Europe). In my personal life, and in my work as a psychologist, I’ve had many brushes with beings at the boundary between the worlds. They have convinced me there’s much more to life than what our five senses tell us.
My past-life memories have served many different purposes. They have reminded me of ignored aspects of myself, and helped me to understand personal issues that seemed to transcend the events and circumstances of this lifetime. At times, they have helped me to understand my connections to the people in my life, and the sometimes difficult and inexplicable issues that arise between us. I believe those memories suggest a continuity of experience and interrelatedness that extends far beyond our current frame of reference.
Tyler: Why did you choose the title “”Hollow Bones””?
Stephen: I got the term “”hollow bones”” from Chief Frank Fools Crow who was considered by many to be the greatest Native American holy person to live in the last hundred years. He and his uncle, Black Elk–also considered an extraordinary Sioux holy man–often talked together about the healing work they did. They often discussed how they became “”holes”” that Spirit could work through.
In an interview with Thomas Mails, Fools Crow described how he prepared himself to do his healing work. He would go off by himself to pray to the Great Spirit. After drawing any negativity out of his being, he would lift his arms to the heavens and allow Spirit to fill him. Once he overflowed with Spirit, he was ready to allow Spirit to flow through him to the person in need of healing.
Fools Crow often used little hollow bones in his healing work. One day it occurred to him that he much preferred to think of himself as a “”little hollow bone”” rather than as a “”hole.”” The term describes well the empty vehicle Spirit prefers to work through–and it certainly has a better ring to it.
Tyler: Stephen, do you think the Native American emphasis, while it may attract some readers, might alienate others because it seems unfamiliar. Without discussing the Native American perspective, what do you think is the core message that makes the “”Hollow Bones”” important to readers?
Stephen: I do think the Native American premise of “”Hollow Bones”” could make it less approachable for some people. I might have had the same reaction just a few years ago. As I mentioned before, the images that inspired me to write “”Hollow Bones”” came from a Native American’s perspective. In a sense, the Native American tradition picked me.
The core messages of “”Hollow Bones”” are: 1.) that we are all related–to each other, to the earth, to the plants and creatures, and to The Creator, 2.) that we need to free ourselves from our attachments to reconnect with Spirit, 3.) that we can create a new world based on living more simply, harmoniously and respectfully, and 4.) that Spirit will play a part in the creation of that new world–just as it did in the past.
Tyler: And what would you say to readers of other faiths besides Native American religion? For example, why not instead focus on the prophecies in the Bible’s book of Revelation rather than Native American prophecies? What would you say to readers who are skeptical of religion in general?
Stephen: The fundamental themes of “”Hollow Bones”” are universal and perennial. They could have been developed in another culture, drawing on the prophecies and traditions of another tradition. The story could have been set in India, China, Israel, Italy, or Afghanistan.
I’m not so sure that a person who discounts all things spiritual or mystical would be interested in “”Hollow Bones.”” However, I wouldn’t describe it as a religious book. I differentiate between structured orthodoxy and mysticism. “”Hollow Bones”” describes the personal mystical experiences of the characters, without trying to suggest one route to salvation. It is a mystical, rather than a religious work.
Tyler: Stephen, you’ve obviously been a very busy man. You’ve written books, worked as a psychologist, and run a metaphysical bookstore and vegetarian restaurant. What do you do to relax or to connect with your own spiritual side?
Stephen: I try to approach everything I do as a “”hollow bone,”” in an empty state of being. I do brief meditations many times throughout the day to bring myself back to that state. I also do tai chi and a lot of hiking and walking to help me remember my place in Being. I love to be in nature, and we try to take frequent trips to the nearby mountains and deserts. We can actually walk to a nearby canyon from our house. It has always been much easier for me to feel connected in nature.
Tyler: Are you working on another book, and if so, can you tell us a little bit about it?
Stephen: Right now I’m focused on getting “”Hollow Bones”” into the hands of readers. However, I do have two other books in mind. The first is a follow-up to “”Hollow Bones”” which will follow the main characters, Matthew, Hope, and Lily as they set out to explore the new world that is emerging at the end of the first book. In a second, non-fiction book, I’ll explain how readers can make the changes (release attachments, empty, open, trust, be) the characters must go through to become “”hollow bones.””
Tyler: Thank you for joining me, today, Stephen. Before we go, will you tell our readers what your website is and what information they can find there about “”Hollow Bones”” and your other books?
Stephen: In addition to a description of “”Hollow Bones,”” I have placed downloadable versions of the Author’s Note, the first two chapters of the book, and a Reader Views review on my website, http://www.circledancer.com.
Also, I’ve posted a lot of other useful information on my website. Each day I post an interactive blog and a quote taken from one of my other books, “”Illuminations,”” “”Inneractions,”” and “”In Love.”” I offer weekly suggestions in a section I call “”You Can Change the World: Simple Actions You Can Take.”” There are also downloadable articles I have written about how to live more simply, harmoniously, and respectfully and links to a number of very informative and useful resources.
Tyler: Finally, what do you hope “”Hollow Bones”” will teach readers?
Stephen: There are several things I hope readers can learn–or remember–through reading “”Hollow Bones.”” The first is that when they read the morning paper or watch the news they are witnessing the fulfillment of prophecies. The predicted intensification of erratic weather patterns, earth movements, starvation, violence, and wars is occurring before their eyes. We have not yet heeded the warning of the indigenous spiritual leaders to live more simply, harmoniously, and respectfully.
I want to remind readers that we truly are all related–to each other, to this earth, to the plants and animals, and to the rest of Being. We live in a culture that emphasizes individualism, selfishness, consumerism, and immediate gratification over relatedness. We need to remember the extent to which we actually are related, and to think and act in ways that are harmonious, respectful, and that benefit the whole.
Finally, I want to present readers with the positive possibilities the future holds if we will only heed the warning. It is possible to create communities that live together in simpler, more harmonious, and more respectful ways–communities guided by the principles of relatedness. I want readers to know that, if they are willing to free themselves from their distracting attachments, Spirit will guide their way through these turbulent times. I want them to discover that they can become “”hollow bones.””
Tyler: Thank you, Stephen, for joining me today. I wish you lots of success with “”Hollow Bones”” and your future endeavors.
Today, Tyler R. Tichelaar of Reader Views is joined by Stephen Paul, who is here to talk about his fascinating new book “”Hollow Bones,”” Circle Dancer Publishing (2007), ISBN 9780979034800.